Discussion on MicroMuse Public Channel on Christmas Night

Moulton: A few people have asked me if we have a discussion topic for tonight, so if people are interested, I have one that might be fun to explore.

Sear: yeah?

Scooby: what?

HorseRider is listening

Moulton: OK. Here's the scenario....

HorseRider prolly won't understand, but

Faceless-Elf: happy!!

Moulton: Let's say there is a kid in your class who is kinda difficult. Tends to bully people, rude, a 'problem-kid'.

Falryx has joined this channel.

Faceless-Elf just logged in and has no idea what you're talking about.. that was a random happy.

Faceless-Elf: .. btw. :)

Moulton: Anyone ever encountered someone like that?

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Sear nods

Rassilon: no.

Zaren: This is from an instructor's p.o.v.?

HorseRider: kinda....but sometimes she's my friend to

Moulton: No, from a peer's point of view.

Zaren: Ah. OK...

Sear: many. too many

HorseRider: *remembers that necklace she broke!!*

Terisa: okay..

Moulton: OK. Now imagine you are that troubled kid....

Sear has a bit of trouble with that.

Moulton: Things are really messed up in your life... Problems at home, lotsa episodes of failed relationships.

Terisa: I can.

HorseRider: I can't..things aren't messed up for her.

Terisa: most of my friends are like that.

Terisa: the non-prep squad.

HorseRider: oh but I know another bully that does have a messed up life

Moulton: Now because of all the emotional trauma in this kid's life, the last thing he cares about is learning geography or math.

Terisa: I can understand that. calc never seemed relevant to me.

Faceless-Elf nods

HorseRider agrees

Moulton: And he has nowhere to turn to find a sympathetic ear from a knowledgeable counselor who might help him figure out how to get out of all this mess in his life...

Terisa: if there is even a way out.

HorseRider: uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......mine's a she

Terisa: at a certain point, if you don't have the grades and all, you may never be able to take certain paths

Sear: there goes my bully. there's *no way* to get out of what she's in

Moulton: What might he do with his bagful of unsolved life problems?

Falryx: find a friend moulton.

Falryx: there are very few people out there that _everyone_ doesn't like.

HorseRider: THAT I don't wanna think about...too scary

Terisa: what he/she needs is somebody to talk with. but there is not much else, sometimes to do.

Sear: Take it out on others. e.g. me and HorseRider.

Moulton: Let's come up with some possible behavior patterns that this person -- he or she - might engage in.

Terisa: turn inward and become an emotional wreck. take it outward and attack others.

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Sear: e'll be an emotional wreck whether e shows it or not

Terisa: handle it all somehow, with a lot of scars, but all right.

Moulton: OK, if they turn inward and become withdrawn, do they fit the premiss of the scene I set up originally?

Terisa: well turning it outward is one way to minimze the damage somewhat.

HorseRider: Turn to the internet and make new friends!!!!!!!!!

Sear: not at all

Terisa: well.. they could be the sullen part.. just completely withdrawn, in another place altogether

HorseRider: On IRCs and MUDs

Terisa: the damage to self, sear. not to others.

Moulton: OK, so let's say they turn it outward and take out their frustrations and agressions on others.

Faceless-Elf: then he'll join the military.

Sear: no, that was in response to what moulton last said, Terisa

Moulton: Now, who in the peer group is he/she most likely to select as a target?

Sear: me

Terisa: right. it's one better defense mechanism for the own person's ego. it'll hurt them a little less, and the people around, a little more. I am assuming that the person is cut off enough from the people around, that he/she doesn't feel guilt for his/her actions

Moulton: Yah, Sear. You. Why you?

Faceless-Elf: those people who represent who he/she could never be.

HorseRider: huh?

Terisa: somebody who seems happy.. or naive. somebody who's got it together. or just a person in authority

HorseRider: Dear?

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HorseRider: er, Sear? :)

Terisa: who they see as repressing them in particular

Faceless-Elf: Not necessarily happy.. just different.

Terisa: the guilty party. the abuser

Sear: because teachers like me. because I try not to do that to others. because I *do* care about learning math or geography

Sear has to give up the phone line and go :(

Moulton: Sear, if some rude person was abusive to you, would you hurt them back?

Terisa: well, they could just go for whoever seems the most vulnerable to them. or just whoever is nearest

Sear: no. but with the person I was thinking of at the beginning I won at the end. without hurting her

Terisa: I think they do little tests, of their actions. and they go for who doesn't push back.

Moulton: Would they go after a scrappy person? Or a mature, understanding, non-violent person?

Sear really really must go 'cause she doesn't have her own line here at her g-parents' house :(

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Sear waves, bybye!

HorseRider: bye

Terisa: a non-violent person. cause they won't fight back

Moulton waves!

Terisa: a scrappy person would be no fun, cause they;d stand up for themselves.

Moulton: OK. They would go after a non-violent person. What other traits would they look for in their target?

Terisa: somebody who wouldn't tell. wouldn't fight. who would accept the attacks w./out doing anything 'htreatening' back

Faceless-Elf: someone with imperfections?

Terisa: er..threatening

Terisa: or if it is a personal vendetta, they would keep going for the same person. the person they have attached the blame to.

Moulton: Would they go after someone who's equally clueless at solving life's problems? Or someone who seems to have been able to solve life's problems as they come up?

Terisa: somebody who looks like they have a handle on things. they'd be jealous in a way.

Faceless-Elf: I don't think many people think about that stuff Moulton. :) In fact, I think they would prefer not to know.. you don't (usually) hurt your best friend because you KNOW it would hurt them.. but a stranger.. that's different in someone's mind.

Moulton: If you wanted to have a problem solved by someone else, would you give it to a poor problem-solver or a gifted problem-solver?

Terisa: yeah, faceless. s'why serial killers never kill their girlfriends. (or boyfriends)

Faceless-Elf: yeah.

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Terisa: it's easier to dehumanize and attack without guilt, a stranger

Faceless-Elf: depends how many problem solvers you know, Moulton..

Moulton works in a research community, F-Elf.

Faceless-Elf: it's easier to present a problem to a bad-problem solver that you know well and trust than it is to a good problem solver who might be judgemental.

Terisa: well would you go to them w/ a personal prob, moulton? :)

Terisa: true. sometimes you just want somebody to listen.

Moulton: Go to whom, Terisa?

Terisa: your research friends.. you'd go to somebody who would have the expertise in what you'd need help with.

Moulton: Let's suppose our troubled-kid has difficulty articulating these problems.

Terisa: not surprising.

Moulton: Yah, cuz I have a pretty good ability to frame the problem in words.

Moulton: But not everybody is good with words, Terisa.

Terisa: what they'd need is a specialized environment, where they can first get more in touch with all thes stuff they're shoving onto others.. then they'd have the words to explain their probs.

Terisa: I know of a place like that. a pretty special place.

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Moulton: Let's say they just don't have access to that, Terisa.

Terisa: this place has the possibility of being like that..even if it isn't fully realized.

Faceless-Elf: the person would express problems in other ways.. like art, poetry and possibly talking to people online. :)

HorseRider: bye all...i have to go

Moulton: What is the name of the place you're thinking of Terisa?

Terisa: individual people here, can be wonderful. so can the place.

Terisa: oh.. walden.

Terisa: on my home system. it's a very small place.. it's a home, really.

Moulton: Please tell us about Walden.

Shannon: Hi guys!

Faceless-Elf: hi Shannon!

Terisa: well it is mostly friends in rl, with a few of dans friends thrown in. so most everybody has some working knowledge of each other.

Terisa: and we discuss everything.. being behind a screen,f rees people up to be totally honest.

Terisa: It has helped everybody who is a part of it, I think.

Terisa: a place for learning, about others..about the world..about yourself.

Moulton: Kind of a Group Therapy by computer?

Terisa: it has encompassed people with completely opposite views. we duke it out between us. and everybody eneds up learning something

Terisa: Not meant to be like that, but it works out like it, yeah.

Moulton: If you want to learn something you don't know, do you go to someone like yourself, or someone unlike yourself?

Terisa: I would try to go to both.

Terisa: and then I'd think on it myself. and see what I come up with.

Moulton: Let's explore that a bit. If you go to someone like yourself, what do you get?

Terisa: I get a view of myself that is closer to what I think, and I can more readily accept. But a different viewpoint too, with different sights.

Moulton: You tend to get Validation and Confirmation. OK. Now if you go to someone unlike yourself, what do you get?

Terisa: a whole different idea. and something I probably wouldn't have thought. and sometimes a better idea.

Moulton: OK, Fresh Ideas, A Different Perspective.

Terisa: yup.

Faceless-Elf: okay.. so does this mean that someone with problems would go to someone who is like them so they could feel better about themselves because they feel validated?

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Terisa: yeah.. the response would probably be less threatening than from somebody different to them

Faceless-Elf likes these discussions. :)

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Terisa waves

Faceless-Elf: hi PP

PowerPig: Hi! =8-)

Terisa: these are fun. :)

Terisa: even if they tend to clear out a channel

PowerPig: What? Conversations with me? =8-)

Terisa: nah. conversations about Stuff.

Moulton: Let's go back to F-Elf's last Q...

Terisa: which was?

Faceless-Elf: would someone go to someone equally bad at solving problems because they would feel less threatened

Terisa: depends on the person. I think that is likely tho.

Moulton: F-Elf, who would you select?

Faceless-Elf: you mean a person?

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Moulton nods.

Faceless-Elf: uhh..

Moulton: Would you go to someone w/ similar unsolved problems?

Moulton: Or someone who probably would figure out how to solve it?

Faceless-Elf: well..

Moulton: Remember the premiss.. You are the troubled kid here.

Moulton: The kid who's rude and obnoxious and bullies ppl a lot.

Faceless-Elf: I suppose.. unconciously, I would go to the one who I felt thought the same.. so yes.. basically, I would.

Faceless-Elf: .. go to someone who thought the same.

Faceless-Elf: and had the same problems.

Terisa: I wouldn't go to somebody who had it together.. I'd be thretened by them, and attack them

Moulton: Go to another rude obnoxious brat then?

Terisa: yah.

Faceless-Elf: probably..

Moulton: OK, and what would you learn from this person who has similar temperament and similar unsolved problems?

Terisa: how to be a jerk and not solve them.

Faceless-Elf: but most troubled people don't think like that, Moulton. :)

Moulton: OK. Now let's think about the other possibility a second...

Moulton: We are not talking 'thinking' we are talking 'behavior'.

Moulton: But let's us try the movie with a different script now...

Faceless-Elf blinks.

Moulton: Now suppose we have the obnoxious kid approaching the bright, courteous, well-adjusted person instead. How would you write the scene?

Terisa: ouch.

Terisa: attack.

Moulton: Interesting. Attack. Why Terisa?

Terisa: because there's no way they could ask somebody like that for help? too much envy and fear.

Moulton: What does the bright, courteous person do in this situation, when confronted by an obnoxious brat?

Terisa: subconscious, at any rate.

Faceless-Elf nods

Moulton: Good. I'll buy the psychology of that.

Terisa: they would have to attack, to gain equal footing.

Terisa: er.. the bright person? gets steam-rolled

Terisa: they probably have little experience with being attacked.. no defenses

Moulton: Now the bright person suddenly has this Very Real Problem on her hands...

Moulton: What happens next?

Terisa: well they get picked on for awhile., until either the person in pain gets the pain fixed, or moves on to a new target, or the bright kid somehow defends him/herslef.

Moulton: Too bad Sear had to leave.

Terisa: yeah. :(

Moulton: I think Sear had a story where this happened and she came out OK.

Terisa: that's good.

Moulton: If the bright, courteous person really is a gifted problem solver, what would you expect her to do when presented with a challenging problem?

Terisa: I have a feeling a lot of the people here would tend more to being picked on, than being the agressors

Terisa: hmm. well they might figure out a way to help the person, or trick them into leaving him/herself alone somehow

Moulton: What else, F-Elf?

Moulton: Rassilon?

Faceless-Elf: when I bright person has a problem, they're more prone to fixing the problem themselves..

Rassilon: yes?

Moulton: You following this line?

Faceless-Elf: and if not, they'd ask someone who could help..

Terisa: right. the bright kid would go to somebody for help

Rassilon: yes.

Moulton: So either acting on their own, or by seeking assistance, the bright person would systematically proceed to research and solve the problem, if at all possible.

Terisa: right.

Faceless-Elf: basically..

Terisa: but solving the problem for the bright person, doesn't always mean solving the problem person's problem

Moulton: And what does the bright person *do* upon having hit upon a reasonable solution?

Terisa: it could mean having the problem person being restrained or changing classes or whatever..no permanent fix

Faceless-Elf: what do you mean, Moulton?

Terisa: the bright person moves on.

Moulton: OK. F-Elf, I present you with a problem that you don't know how to solve, and after a time you come up with an idea on how to solve it.

What do you do with the idea?

Faceless-Elf: I would use the idea.. err.. try to use the idea to solve the problem.. and after I did, I would give you the answer.

Sear returns at long last

Moulton: You would act out the solution based on your idea. And who would you be acting out this solution in front of?

Moulton wonders what happened to the discussants.

Terisa: I am here.

Terisa: I'm always here. :)

Moulton: F-Elf is gone.

Sear wonders if someone could catch her up on the last half hour

Moulton: Terisa, would you be kind enough to summarize for Sear?

Moulton: Or I could E-Mail it to Sear. :)

Terisa: well.. email is good. :)

Sear: if ya want. but then I'd have to take a while to read it and I'd miss more

Moulton: Oh, wait. Sear doesn't have E-Mail.

Sear: yes I do. two, in fact. three, really

Moulton: Oh, You want me to /log the discussion and E-Mail it to one of your accts?

Sear: it's just not registered on here because....because when my char was made no one asked for it

Sear: that'd be good. I'm lsomber@ctp.org

Sear wonders if you sent it and she should go check now...

Moulton: OK. 6-minute break while I send it to Sear...

Terisa: okay

Sear wonders how long these things take to arrive semi-locally

Moulton just mailed it, Sear.

Sear goes to get it..BB in a few

PolarStar has joined this channel.

PolarStar: Too Quiet

Zaren has joined this channel.

Zaren: Good nite, all!

Faceless-Elf connects after his connection explodes.

Terisa: where'd sear go?

Sear is back and does have a story

Terisa yays!

Nightbreed: Yay!

Nightbreed: What's your story, Sear?

Sear had to wait about 10 mins for that mail to arrive

TigerBalm: yays ferally!

Faceless-Elf happys

Terisa yays! tigerdander!

Cyberdyne: help

Sear: anyway, ever since about 3rd grade, there were these kids, mostly a year older than me, who would bug me about *everything*

TigerBalm flexes a feral eyebrow

Cyberdyne: I havent been on in ages

Cyberdyne: what section is the place were visitors com in

Sear: I think it started out because one of my best friends was a person who people always took their anger out on, and although people disliked me in part because of her, I stayed her friend

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Cyberdyne: In a flash and he is gone......

Sear: now these people who were so mean to us were a lot like what Moulton was describing before. one lived with her mother and four siblings, each of whom had a different father. another's brother(this only happened l8r) had stabbed someone and been convicted to 8-10 years at Walpole. and so on and so forth. and they were big. I was tiny

Sear: so this went on for a couple of years, with on and off stages, different people being the worst to me. at one point by best friend was accepted into the group of people who had originally hated her, and so she had just become one of "them"

Sear: then in 6th grade I had a really good year with good teachers, kids who I got along with, an environment where I could feel safe, express myself, and I think I learned a lot about people and myself

Sear: of course, the next year I had almost every class with one of the people who was the worst to me

Faceless-Elf: I hate that.

Terisa: ouch. :(

Sear: everything I did, she would react to in a negative way. I'd look at her, not on purpose, just glancing around the room, and she'd snap at me "don't stare at me!"

Sear: and there was also the person who would start food fights (this is an 8th grader who was 15 at the time!!!!!!!!)

Moulton is fascinated by this story.

Sear: but anyway, nothing could get done in class without some kind of problem, and I didn't think anything would work. people suggested mediation, which I immediately vetoed because I didn't think anyone else could understand, especially since it could turn out to be the other person's friend, and I didn't think there was any simple solution that could be agreed to

Sear: I had also tried a slightly different approach all that year. instead of trying to ignore them(which is impossible if they're blocking your way), I was just *extremely* polite. if someone called me a name, I'd politely tell them that I didn't like that name and would they please call me Lucia

Sear: if they blocked my way, I'd ask if they'd move aside so I could get through

Sear: on most people, it worked. they were just so astounded to find someone actually being polite for once that they'd just do what I asked. but there was one who took it as mocking, insulting her

Sear: so it was going nowhere. nothing was happening, and I thought it was hopeless

Sear: well, one day in Music she tried to start a fight with me (you don't even want to know how stupid it was), and when I refused to apologize for something I hadn't done because she had been so awful to me for all those years (and I told her, too) she hit me.

Moulton: Wow.

Sear: I've *never* been in a fight before (not counting with my lil bro), and even if it doesn't hurt, I *sure* don't like being hit, and it makes me *mad*

Monad: So what did you do, Sear?

Sear: and when I'm really mad and don't know what to do, I burst into tears. which is what I did

Sear: which was, of course, very embarrasing. I mean really, what are you supposed to say to a bunch of kids in a class when all of a sudden you burst into tears over what appears to be nothing(but is really something that has been building up for years)

Sear: you don't. and they think you're "weird". which is why I kept crying

Nightbreed: whip out an uzi and kill everyone, and then claim emotional stress caused it

Sear: first of all I didn't have one with me, and second of all I'm the one who had never been in a fight in her entire life and wasn't about to start now

TigerBalm: say you ate a lot of twinkies (it's worked before!)

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Sear: so anyway, all the teachers(and they all knew what had been going on to some extent)

Monad: Wasn't there a teacher around?

Sear: yes. the music teacher. she's....welll...not the kind of person who would know what to do

Monad: Did she see the other girl hit you?

Sear: but anyway, after that, all the teachers were very concerned, and sort of--I dunno, not really mad at the other person, but I guess wondering what to do.

Sear: yes, she did

Sear: but then it just worked itself out. never after that would the other girl look me straight in the eye, say a thing to me if she didn't absolutely have to.

Sear: it was almost as if she was scared of me or something

Moulton: What do you think she learned from you, Sear?

Sear: oh yes and I think she officially got in-school suspension for a day or something, though I don't think they ever made her go. but just 'cause I made a fuss and said that that wasn't right, people should be subjected to that in a school

Sear: I'm not sure. for one, that violence isn't the strongest thing

Sear: nor intimidation

Moulton: Up until that time, do you think she understood that she had been hurting you?

Sear: yes. I'm am very sure.

Raskolnikov hellos.

Moulton: Do you think after that she understood it in a different way?

Sear: I'm not sure if I'd say it that way. I think she understood that the best thing for her was to back off.

Sear: because I had been hurt, and I wasn't going to stand for it anymore.

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Moulton: That's a poignant story, Sear. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Sear smiles and hopes it can help someone.

Sear thinks the public chan is getting too full and invites anyone who wants to continute the earlier conversation to come over to my place. #28293

Followup discussion in Sear's House...

Sear pages: if you're interested (and unidle) there's a continuation of the convo at my house.

Moulton pages Sear with "On Micro or G&P? :)".

Sear pages: micro. Terisa, draco, and FE are here, too

Sear's House(#28293RJ)
A large room with high vaulted ceilings. It has gold trimming and red silk curtains that you assume cover windows. It is acoustically perfect.

Sculpted Candle
Obvious exits:
Long Dark Corridor Out

Sear says "hello"

draco says "hello"

Terisa says "hey"

Moulton says "Hello."

Faceless-Elf says "when people bother you, it's because they find you as a good portal to vent frustration.. so you have to change the vent.."

Faceless-Elf says "hi Moulton."

Moulton looks at the Sculpted Candle..

Sculpted Candle
Before you sits a small candle sculpted to resemble a wizard. The old wax wizard has a long white beard, which covers the lower half of his wrinkled face, and is wearing various multi-colored articles of clothing. He's sitting in a crosslegged position and has some sort of wand in one of his hands. The candle's wax eyes seem to follow you as you walk around the room. On the top of its head is a wick, blackened from use.

Moulton waves hello.

Sculpted Candle says "To light me type 'light candle', to blow me out type 'blow out'"

The Wizard candle goes out with a flicker as Terisa blows it out. The blackened wick lets off wisps of smoke.

Sear says "what did you change it to? (I hope this is an answerable question)"

draco hugs Viper! Viper hugs draco back happily!

Sear says "if you change it to another person that's no good. 'cause then they're in the same situation you were in"

Faceless-Elf says "this isn't the whole of it, but you know how people care less about people they know? like if your neighbor gets killed, you'll have a greater reaction than if it was someone across town that you don't know?"

Sear is confused didn't you just say two opposite things? one that you care *less* about people you know, and then that yu care *more* about people you know?

Faceless-Elf says "well.. ugg.."

Moulton says "What is the difference between Remorse and Guilt?"

Faceless-Elf says "gah. bad typo on my part."

Sear says "remorse is being sad, guilt is feeling like it was your fault. Remorse can also be being unhappy about how something went, or even unhappy that you did something. I think"

Faceless-Elf feels silly and lets Moulton explain.

Terisa says "guilt just means feelign bad. remorse means being penitent, as well as feeling bad. or so I think."

Sear thinks FE was doing well except for a confusing typo :)

Moulton says "We all agree that Remorse is a Feeling, an Emotion?"

Sear nods

Terisa says "yeah."

Moulton says "What about Guilt? Is it always a Feeling or Emotion?"

Sear says "I think so"

Terisa says "well, what else is it?"

Sear says "it's something you feel"

Moulton says "Could be a Judgment laid on you by an external Judging Agent."

Sear says "but that probably wouldn't make you feel guilty. just make other people think you are guilty"

Terisa says "oh.. I see. as in guilt/innocence, it isn't an emotion"

Sear has to get off because her brother is trying to fall asleep in the same room :(

Sear says "you guys can stay here"

Moulton says "Someone can accuse you of a bad act, and pronounce you Guilty. You might or might not feel Remorseful."

Sear waves, see y'all around, bybye!

Terisa waves.

Moulton waves.

Sear says "oh BTW mind emailing me the rest, Moulton?"

Moulton already did, Sear.

Sear says "no I mean whatever happens after I leave"

Moulton says "Oh, from here. OK."

Sear says "thanx"

Terisa says "you mean /log it and mail it to you?"

Sear nods

Sear bybyes again!

Sear has disconnected.

Sear disapears.

Lennis loses its ears and becomes deaf.

Sear says "\//"

Lennis goes home.

Terisa says "OK. moulton's doing that(?)"

Moulton says "Do you see the distinction I'm making between Remorse and Guilt?"

Terisa says "Yep."

Faceless-Elf nods

draco nods.

Faceless-Elf wows as his lag goes away.

Moulton says "Now, which do you think has more effect on a person's future behavior -- Feeling Genuine Remorse, or Being Pronounced Guilty?"

Terisa says "remorse"

draco says "remorse."

Moulton says "Exactly."

Moulton says "Now, what do you suppose is the single most effective way to interfere with the psychological process of Naturally Feeling Remorse?"

Faceless-Elf says "to think about something else instead of the remorse, of course (*ding*)"

Faceless-Elf reminds everyone of the bad joke bell.

Terisa says "ew."

Moulton says "If I see you do something 'bad' and I want to make sure you don't feel Remorse, what can I do?"

Faceless-Elf says "tell us that it's good."

Moulton says "Would that do it, Terisa? Or would that only confuse you?"

Faceless-Elf is now known as Faceless.

draco says "depends on who thought it was 'bad' to begin with."

Moulton says "OK. Let's say Moulton thought it was 'bad'."

Terisa says "er.. sorry. I went to email a t-you note to my dad."

Moulton says "Any one have any ideas on how to interfere with Remorse?" draco hmms.

Faceless says "I don't understand what you mean."

draco says "pain?"

Terisa says "well, if you started being a jerk about being right.."

Terisa says "if you were insufferable, iI would get disgruntled enough to stop feeling remorseful."

Moulton says "OK, say you made a careless or foolish mistake and things got messed up.."

draco says "i know what that feels like. today. sigh"

Moulton says "Ah, good Terisa."

Moulton says "Here you are feeling bad about making a mess, and I come along and do what?"

Terisa says "be an idiot and get in my face about it."

Terisa says "if you ripped me down when I was already feeling low, I'd get mad."

Moulton says "Yah. I chew you out and pronounce you Guilty. What happens to your Remorse? What does it now become?"

Terisa says "or if you were just being a general jerk about it."

draco says "anger"

Terisa says "anger."

Moulton says "Yes. Anger."

Moulton says "Which is definitely not Remorse."

Faceless nods

Moulton says "So there is not only a distinction between Remorse and Guilt, they are mutually incompatible."

draco says "not necessarily"

draco says "you could pronounce me guilty without being an asshole about it."

Terisa says "you can feel both at the same timre"

Moulton says "And if I want to ensure a future behavior change, I'd go with Remorse, and not Guilt/Anger."

draco nods.

Terisa says "you can be remorseful and guilty-feeling. in fact the two often go togetehr"

Moulton says "Well, remember that we are defining Guilt here as a Judgment, and not a synonym for the Emotion or Feeling of Remorse."

Faceless says "I think they're independant of each other."

Terisa says "well, draco is right."

Terisa says "you could pronounce somebody guilty and do it nicely enough. or at least, not offensively"

Terisa says "it doesn't have to work that specific way, that the two are opposite"

Moulton says "Notice how we conflate genuine emotions with words like Guilt which isn't necessarily the name of an Emotion."

Moulton says "What would be the point of Pronouncing Someone Guilty, Terisa?"

Terisa says "well it is centrally an emotion."

Moulton says "What usually follows a Guilty Verdict?"

Terisa says "to be academic about it. to make a warning to others. to help the person feel remorse, I s'pose.. but that isn't really the pt. to pass judgement on somebody, to punish them. to help them get treatment"

Moulton says "Guilt is usually followed by some sort of Punishment."

Terisa says "Not always"

Terisa says "Sometimes it is purely academic. and sometimes treatment and aid follows the verdict"

Terisa says "it doesn't always mean punishment at all. in fact the way things go today. it is hardly punishment at all, usually"

Moulton says "I think we're veering off course a little here."

Terisa says "overcrowded prisons, whee."

Moulton says "After the girl hit Sear, and Sear cried, what emotion do you think swept over the girl?"

Terisa says "maybe remose, maybe not."

Moulton says "What others come to mind?"

Terisa says "if she has been doing this a long time, she is very accomplished at closing herself off to remose/guilt"

draco says "powertrip"

Moulton says "Feelings of Power."

Faceless says "yeah.. control."

Moulton says "What else could she have felt?"

Terisa says "boredom?"

Terisa says "fear of punishment by the higher authority?"

Moulton says "Fear."

Moulton doubts it was boredom.

PowerPig pages: 'k. Have fun.

draco says ":)"

Faceless says "empathy, if someone had once treated her like that."

Moulton says "Empathy. Good."

Terisa says "well.. if she was doing it to get a rise, once sear had broken down, the fun would be gone."

Moulton says "And after that, she didn't bother Sear at all."

Terisa says "I doubt she would be feeling empathy. but who knows."

Moulton says "Do you suppose this obnoxious girl ever cried when she was picked on?"

Terisa hugs Lothar! Lothar wraps his arms around you and never wants to let go.

Terisa says "well, she may never have been picked on."

Lothar hugs Terisa! Terisa hugs ya back!

Moulton says "Say much earlier in her life?"

draco says "probably."

Faceless says "I think she was. why do people pick on othrs? it's not just because."

Faceless says "it always has a reason."

Terisa says "who knows. could go either way. she could have repressed it all, and it leaked out later. or she could have cried, and the remembered weakness of it, the shame.. is what drives her to attack others now" draco often reads about child abusers who were abused themselves as children

Moulton says "People rarely invent novel behaviors."

draco nods.

Moulton says "Exactly, Draco."

Moulton says "But Sear cried in public and it actually helped."

Moulton says "Which frankly surprised me, because for boys that's not usually true, so I wouldn't have thought of that solution."

draco says "the normal response for most males i know would have been a violent one."

draco says "some females, too."

Moulton says "Normal, perhaps, but not necessarily effective." draco nods.

Moulton says "But Sear did something extraordinary."

Moulton says "Up until that time the girl's attacks had been more verbal and psychological, not physical."

Moulton says "Sear was being oppressed, but not in a way that was evident to the casual observer."

Moulton says "But she never struck back."

Terisa says "like gandhi"

Terisa says "or MLK Jr"

Moulton says "And then her oppressor struck her. And everyone saw."

Moulton says "Exactly. Like Gandhi."

Moulton says "Or MLK, Jr."

Terisa says "like the palestinians with the intifadah"

Moulton says "And that is the most Powerful Idea I know of."

Terisa says "kids with stones versus the police with guns"

Moulton says "And when everyone Witnessed the attack, the Attacker could no longer deny it."

Moulton says "She enabled the girl to Become Aware."

Moulton says "And that is Powerful."

Faceless contemplates.

Terisa says "bad lag"

Moulton says "No Lag. I'm finished and letting ppl think about it."

Terisa says "I personally was lagged"

Moulton says "Well, I think I am done, unless anyone has something they would like to add."

Terisa says "well, the very original discussion was loosly based on one person being unruly, right?"

Moulton says "We can talk about these ideas again another day if you like. It's almost 1AM now."

Terisa says "details, minor detail.."

Faceless smirks

Moulton says "Sear acted back a solution that the perpetrator accepted."

Terisa says "is such a solution possible through this medium tho? and how?"

Faceless says "online?"

Moulton says "In theory, yes. But creative problem solving is just that. You can't look up the solution in a classical textbook."

Terisa says "right."

Moulton says "Nevertheless, Creative Problem Solving can be learned."