Transactions of the Utne/Brainstorms Secret Mailing List Note: There were 13 recipients on this mailing list, 2 of whom did not respond or participate. The list of recipients has been redacted. ========================================================================== From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 05:57:09 1998 Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 22:46:24 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: utne I spent an hour or so tonight reading over on Cafe Utne. In no particular order: *Kai is a saint, a far more patient human than I am. *Barry and Janet are ballistic there. Just. Plain. Ballistic. Some of what I read actually made me nauseous. I thought I've seen energy creatures before, I thought I'd seen some world-class ones. Nothing holds a candle to this. *I'm torn as to what to do about Life Online. Apparently the host sees no problem, isn't answering anyone's email, and thinks a general "let's all stop this" is enough. I refuse, absolutely refuse, to let this become a societal dynamic problem when it is just an individual. So I'm very torn and somewhat ambivalent about my future in LO until Howard deals with things. *I'm still unsure of the strategy of engaging Barry. I just saw lots and lots of folks try to do the same thing -- contain Barry and keep him busy -- over on Utne. There are 650+ posts in one Barry topic since May 19. It's impossible to contain him or wear him down. Impossible. *I find this so depressing, but that's probably because it's late tonight. It may look less dismal by morning. I'm just hoping that Howard looks at his email this weekend at some point. E ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:14:57 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:22:02 -0400 From: sharon shaw home To: CC: Subject: Re:response Just a word to say Robin responded to my last night's e suggesting he/she might want to read a little more before setting about defining the problem at BS with kort. Got a response this AM saying he/she thought it a free speech problem and that we might want to open a topic just to address kort's issue. I replied that if this was a free speech issue I was Hillary Clinton. I say we do the best we can minute by minute, make as many newcoemrs as possible feel at home, keep up non-toxic conversations, and let wise robin deal with the rest of the shit. After all, your and my time and attention are always subject to Kort's free speech rights, right! sharon ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:14:58 1998 From: "Janette Agg" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Re:response Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:58:06 +1000 One of the problems I think for people coming along later and reading the posts, is that they didn't see the original postings before they were edited by Barry, and therefore are inclined to think that we may be over-reacting ... ---------- > From: sharon shaw home > To: > Cc: > Subject: Re:response > Date: Friday, 5 June 1998 21:22 > > Just a word to say Robin responded to my last night's e suggesting he/she > might want to read a little more before setting about defining the problem > at BS with kort. > > Got a response this AM saying he/she thought it a free speech problem and > that we might want to open a topic just to address kort's issue. I replied > that if this was a free speech issue I was Hillary Clinton. > > I say we do the best we can minute by minute, make as many newcoemrs as > possible feel at home, keep up non-toxic conversations, and let wise robin > deal with the rest of the shit. After all, your and my time and attention > are always subject to Kort's free speech rights, right! > > sharon ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:30:39 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:35:46 -0700 (PDT) To: From: Marlene Arnese Subject: Who else. Cc: One of these days I'll figure out the cc: thing. >Got a response this AM saying he/she thought it a free speech problem and that >we might want to open a topic just to address kort's issue. I replied that if >this was a free speech issue I was Hillary Clinton. Given the Utne experience, the last thing I want to see is a topic opened about Barry. ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:33:00 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:37:55 -0700 (PDT) To: From: Marlene Arnese Subject: Re: response Cc: And one more ... (sorry, I really will get this cc: thing worked out) >One of the problems I think for people coming along later and reading the >posts, is that they didn't see the original postings before they were >edited by Barry, and therefore are inclined to think that we may be >over-reacting ... This is why I think it's better not to respond to him on his level. Scenario 1: Barry writes a jerk post. I respond in kind. Barry changes his post to something nice. Result: I look like a jerk while Barry looks nice (unless, of course, I go back and change my post to something nice ... O what a tangled web we weave, etc.) Scenario 2: Barry writes a jerk post. Nobody responds in kind. Barry changes his post to something nice. Result: Doesn't matter. Nobody looks like a jerk. ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:41:35 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:40:07 -0400 To: From: Teri Subject: Re:response Cc: I thouroughly enjoyed BS before this week. I now cringe when I see anything posted by BK. And he has actually made some thoughtful, intelligent, non-confrontational posts - but I don't trust him, I don't like him, and I don't like his philosophy and methodology. And I certainly don't like the fact that in a matter of a couple of weeks he is seemingly dominating any conference he has decided to join. If this is how he is now after just a couple of weeks, what is he going to be like when he REALLY gets comfortable and more people get uncomfortable? I have a feeling we are going to see more posts like 44:52 and worse. The last line of that post - Elizabeth, please leave Brainstorms; I am having problems with you, and I don't like having to deal with them. Please go away, and thanks for your cooperation in helping me solve my problems. I'd solve it myself by putting wax in my ears, but I'm fresh out of earwax. triggered such a strong reaction in me (very angry) that I decided I no longer have time or energy to deal with such an energy drain. I really enjoy BS, I think we have the potential to create something really interesting, entertaining and satisfying for a wide variety of people. I really hope that we don't have to deal with much more of this from BK or anyone else in the future. Free speech? Freedom of speech carries with it the responsibility to listen and respect others. It's all part of that adult thing I talked about in 44. BTW - Kai - I am really impressed with your ability to disengage yourself from useless discourse. I am still going to try to figure out what's up with TalkCity - I really do want to be able to come in and chat. Maybe I'll work on that today - been in there before, so I am not sure what the problem is now. T At 07:22 AM 6/5/98 -0400, sharon shaw home wrote: > Just a word to say Robin responded to my last night's e suggesting he/she > might want to read a little more before setting about defining the problem > at BS with kort. > > Got a response this AM saying he/she thought it a free speech problem and > that we might want to open a topic just to address kort's issue. I replied > that if this was a free speech issue I was Hillary Clinton. > > I say we do the best we can minute by minute, make as many newcoemrs as > possible feel at home, keep up non-toxic conversations, and let wise robin > deal with the rest of the shit. After all, your and my time and attention > are always subject to Kort's free speech rights, right! > > sharon > Teri M. Myers Director of Community Development Tripod, Inc 413-458-2265 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -Aldous Huxley ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:55:24 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:56:06 -0400 To: From: Teri Subject: Re: Agh. Cc: Well said and I agree 100%! That is precisely what I think but you said it much more eloquently than I. Thank you for that Marlene! T At 07:39 AM 6/5/98 -0700, Marlene Arnese wrote: >Of course, it would help if I put the cc:s in the cc: line instead of the >subject line. Sorry, Elizabeth! > >*** >Note: I sent this to Elizabeth last night but somehow failed to cc: >everyone. So here it is, FWIW. > >*** > >>*I'm still unsure of the strategy of engaging Barry. I just saw lots and >>lots of folks try to do the same thing -- contain Barry and keep him busy >>-- over on Utne. There are 650+ posts in one Barry topic since May 19. It's >>impossible to contain him or wear him down. Impossible. > >Why don't we make an anonymous call to his employer to tell him what Barry >does all day? (Hee hee.) > >I've been thinking about this a lot, and here's the thing: I am very >capable of spending all my time engaging in intrigue; in fact, I can >probably be bitchier than any of you about people I don't like. But >Brainstorm is different; it's a kinder, gentler place, if you will. I have >found it wonderfully refreshing to be among people who are so incredibly >civilized, polite, and thoughtful. I don't want it to degenerate into just >another place with cliques and vendettas (vendetti?). > >So the bottom line is that I am going back to my frame of mind of a few >days ago. I'm not going to let Barry get to me. If he says something >intelligent that's on topic, I will respond to him in the same manner in >which I would respond to anyone. Anything else is unworthy of my time or >energy, and I'm not going to demean myself by stooping to his level. I will >wait for Howard's decision on what to do. I stress, however, that this is >just my decision and of course I'll respect whatever you each decide. > >As I said to some of you earlier tonight, there are three possible >outcomes: (a) Howard kicks Barry off, (b) Howard tells Barry to knock it >off, and he does, and (c) Howard doesn't do anything. I don't mean to put >all the responsibility on Howard, but the fact is that he has the ultimate >say in this matter. If Barry is able to continue to disrupt BS, I will >leave. Life is too short. > >I am more distressed than I can say over this whole thing, but I am not >going to give Barry the power to make me miserable. In my opinion, nothing >will stop him from behaving badly, and the only way to deal with him is >shut him out. Even if he promises to behave well there is always the >likelihood he'll erupt again. Who wants to monitor him? But again, that's >Howard's decision, not mine. > >Marlene > ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 09:55:26 1998 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Cc: Subject: Barry Kort Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:59:06 -0700 Everyone, The basic premise that I've come to Brainstorms with is that we are visiting Howard's living room. We were invited to have (hopefully) intelligent discussions and to get to know one another. Howard's there to provide the beverages and music. If we were at a party and one of the guests became rude, we wouldn't meet or vote to have them ejected. We'd simply go to the host and inform them that this particular guest is ruining the party. It is up to Howard to manage his guests and in this case to deal with Barry as he sees fit. It is unfortuante that Howard is out of town right now, but I suspect that Barry knows that and is taking advantage of it. I've already stated my opinion about topic editting...it is the nuclear weapon of virtual communities. And guess what the genie is out of the bottle. There isn't anything we can do to keep Barry from editting his posts, as objectionable as that may be, again at least until Howard returns. As result some of us will look like jerks later. Finally, while I'd argue that Brainstorms is a private space similar to Howard's living room, and therefore free speech is not an issue, we all know that Barry will argue this until he turns blue. So whether we like it or not free speech will be an issue in this situation. It is everytime you try to tell someone what they can't do or say online. We have to be real careful with this e-mail thing because anytime (in my experience) that a behind the scenes e-mail flurry like this gets going the subject always hears about it. Then they can use the very existence of a back channel discussion as justification for their conspiracy theories, feelings of persecution, etc. Even if he doesn't hear about it he'll probably assume it is happening. And we'll hear about it later in other communities over and over and over and over... Peter ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 10:06:31 1998 Subject: Re: Barry Kort Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:05:42 -0700 From: "Phillip K. Lee" To: CC: Hi folks, Peter, you have a good point. However, I believe Barry will probably claim conspiracies regardless whether or not these e-mail communications exist. In Utne, Barry went on quite a rant about "secret societies" because he couldn't get access to the Host's conference and the WomensOnly Conference, because he was sure they were plotting against him, or at least talking negatively. So personally, I am not sure how best to proceed..... Phillip ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 11:15:21 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:22:59 -0500 To: From: Kai Hagen Subject: Re: response Cc: If you want to respond to something Barry posts, and you concerned he may change it, I suggest pasting his post (or the relevant sections) into your response. At 7:37 AM -0700 6/5/98, Marlene Arnese wrote: >And one more ... (sorry, I really will get this cc: thing worked out) > >>One of the problems I think for people coming along later and reading the >>posts, is that they didn't see the original postings before they were >>edited by Barry, and therefore are inclined to think that we may be >>over-reacting ... > >This is why I think it's better not to respond to him on his level. > >Scenario 1: >Barry writes a jerk post. >I respond in kind. >Barry changes his post to something nice. > >Result: I look like a jerk while Barry looks nice (unless, of course, I go >back and change my post to something nice ... O what a tangled web we >weave, etc.) > >Scenario 2: >Barry writes a jerk post. >Nobody responds in kind. >Barry changes his post to something nice. > >Result: Doesn't matter. Nobody looks like a jerk. ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 11:24:38 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:32:14 -0500 To: From: Kai Hagen Subject: Re: Barry Kort Cc: Peter, If you are concerned that Barry might be intending to edit his worst post before Howard returns, I suggest downloading a few topics from Life Online. Getting caught in the act would certainly be compeeling evidence to boot Barry from BS. Kai At 7:59 AM -0700 6/5/98, Peter Rothman wrote: >Everyone, > >The basic premise that I've come to Brainstorms with is that we are visiting >Howard's living room. We were invited to have (hopefully) intelligent >discussions and to get to know one another. Howard's there to provide the >beverages and music. > >If we were at a party and one of the guests became rude, we wouldn't meet or >vote to have them ejected. We'd simply go to the host and inform them that >this particular guest is ruining the party. It is up to Howard to manage >his guests and in this case to deal with Barry as he sees fit. It is >unfortuante that Howard is out of town right now, but I suspect that Barry >knows that and is taking advantage of it. > >I've already stated my opinion about topic editting...it is the nuclear >weapon of virtual communities. And guess what the genie is out of the >bottle. There isn't anything we can do to keep Barry from editting his >posts, as objectionable as that may be, again at least until Howard returns. >As result some of us will look like jerks later. > >Finally, while I'd argue that Brainstorms is a private space similar to >Howard's living room, and therefore free speech is not an issue, we all know >that Barry will argue this until he turns blue. So whether we like it or >not free speech will be an issue in this situation. It is everytime you try >to tell someone what they can't do or say online. > >We have to be real careful with this e-mail thing because anytime (in my >experience) that a behind the scenes e-mail flurry like this gets going the >subject always hears about it. Then they can use the very existence of a >back channel discussion as justification for their conspiracy theories, >feelings of persecution, etc. Even if he doesn't hear about it he'll >probably assume it is happening. And we'll hear about it later in other >communities over and over and over and over... > >Peter ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 11:26:57 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:30:20 +0000 From: scott butki To: CC: Subject: more metabarries would help if i posted to all instead of just 1 person. I'm just going through the posts before going to work. work is less stressful than bs lately. i just saw that barry announced he had previously deleted a post at the request of a sysop. anyone know what the post was and who made that request? i wanted to ask but im trying to avoid engaging him. i think it's better for bs people who he doensnt know from utne talk to him rather than utne people. with the latter he seems to be quicker to mention utne stuff. also... I'm wondering if we can ask that as posts are deleted if someone - be it another poster or the one who deleted it (barry) would at least summarize the post and/or why it was deleted. i.e. i deleted post 22 because some saw it as a personal attack. but than i'm a dreamer sometimes... scott -- scott butki ICQ#12375331 http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html reporter/columnist/muser about life "Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 12:21:20 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:19:48 -0700 From: Thea Greenhalgh To: CC: Subject: Re: BK Marlene Arnese wrote: > On second thought I think he's just insane. Ummm - I checked out B's homepage last night b/c I wanted to see if that was where the alluded to passages from utne had been posted. Nope. But did see that his father just died. Or at least there is some reference to a memorial service for him in April. Don't know if this is at all relevant. Might be. thea ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 12:21:21 1998 From: Marlene Arnese Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:30:28 -0700 To: CC: Subject: RE: Re: BK >Ummm - I checked out B's homepage last night b/c I wanted >to see if that was where the alluded to passages from utne >had been posted. I think he said he's got a private "scrapbook" on his page that requires a password, which he gives to his friends. That's probably where the Utne stuff is. >But did see that his father just died. Or at least there >is some reference to a memorial service for him in April. Well, not to be callous, but my father died unexpectedly last October and I didn't feel the need to go online and bother people. On a completely different topic: Has anyone else noticed an increase in spam since joining BS? I used to get one every few months, but I've gotten about eight in the last few weeks. I know that's not a lot compared to what other people get, but I don't put this address out in very many places. Just wondering if it's happened to any of you? ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 12:21:22 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 12:30:40 -0400 From: Sharon Shaw MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CC: Subject: Re: Agh. Marlene: excellent post and excellent position. I agree with you. Difficult as it is to refrain from letting kort ruin a part of the day or to stop my fingers from posting. -- Sharon Shaw Puffin Productions ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 12:28:11 1998 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Barry Kort Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:30:53 -0700 Kai, I am not too worried about this. I look like a jerk all the time... ;-) But it is a good suggestion. Peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai Hagen [mailto:kai@river.org] > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 10:32 AM > To: > Cc: > Subject: Re: Barry Kort > > > Peter, > > If you are concerned that Barry might be intending to edit his worst > post before Howard returns, I suggest downloading a few topics from > Life Online. > > Getting caught in the act would certainly be compeeling evidence to boot > Barry from BS. > > Kai > > At 7:59 AM -0700 6/5/98, Peter Rothman wrote: > > >Everyone, > > > >The basic premise that I've come to Brainstorms with is that we are visiting > >Howard's living room. We were invited to have (hopefully) intelligent > >discussions and to get to know one another. Howard's there to provide the > >beverages and music. > > > >If we were at a party and one of the guests became rude, we wouldn't meet or > >vote to have them ejected. We'd simply go to the host and inform them that > >this particular guest is ruining the party. It is up to Howard to manage > >his guests and in this case to deal with Barry as he sees fit. It is > >unfortuante that Howard is out of town right now, but I suspect that Barry > >knows that and is taking advantage of it. > > > >I've already stated my opinion about topic editting...it is the nuclear > >weapon of virtual communities. And guess what the genie is out of the > >bottle. There isn't anything we can do to keep Barry from editting his > >posts, as objectionable as that may be, again at least until Howard returns. > >As result some of us will look like jerks later. > > > >Finally, while I'd argue that Brainstorms is a private space similar to > >Howard's living room, and therefore free speech is not an issue, we all know > >that Barry will argue this until he turns blue. So whether we like it or > >not free speech will be an issue in this situation. It is everytime you try > >to tell someone what they can't do or say online. > > > >We have to be real careful with this e-mail thing because anytime (in my > >experience) that a behind the scenes e-mail flurry like this gets going the > >subject always hears about it. Then they can use the very existence of a > >back channel discussion as justification for their conspiracy theories, > >feelings of persecution, etc. Even if he doesn't hear about it he'll > >probably assume it is happening. And we'll hear about it later in other > >communities over and over and over and over... > > > >Peter ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:01 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:46:57 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: Re: Re:response Cc: At 09:58 PM 6/5/98 +1000, Janette Agg wrote: >One of the problems I think for people coming along later and reading the >posts, is that they didn't see the original postings before they were >edited by Barry, and therefore are inclined to think that we may be >over-reacting ... First -- does anyone know if Robin is male or female? I'm going to default to female until someone can tell me for sure. :-) Well, not *that* sure, but you know...Anyway, I told Robin that Barry was back-editing posts. She never returned my email. Looks like Robin may have to learn the hard way. Second -- please use this address for Bob Watson this weekend: euclidian@www.zoots.com Third -- today I'm pondering the strategy, if we *all* agree to it, of going back and discussing, but totally, completely ignoring anything Barry posts or is posted to him. We could have a discussion among ourselves. "Free speech" doesn't mean we have to speak to Barry. Let's give this some consideration and discussion. Fourth -- What Peter said about Barry assuming we're talking in email is absolutely correct. He was pushing on Utne for a rule...oh, excuse me, a Commitment and Charter...that would forbid anyone from talking in a private conf about anyone outside of the conf. At any rate, I don't have to tell any of you that this conversation is private. If you are uncomfortable with that, please let us know and we'll take you off the list without any bad feelings. Everyone has their comfort level. Fifth -- never assume Barry is doing anything for the first time. He knows all about most of these issues from the Well. He knows all about YOYOW, and private confs being able to do as they please, etc. His MO includes bringing these things up as if he's never encountered them before, and as if there isn't a majority consensus on them (although I know they are still objected to by some). This is what I find particularly disingeneous. Sixth -- I think Kai has come up with a brilliant way of dealing with Barry's changing previous posts by quoting him. Even in huge chunks. It won't change how he changes things before folks respond, but it will help a lot. Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:03 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:39:20 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: Re: Barry Kort I thought Peter's email, below, was a really perfect summary of the problem. Howard never meant for it to be a place where free speech was pure and absolute, not at the expense of assholes ruining the place. I do strongly believe that he'll deal with Barry, eventually with Janet if she does on BS what she did on Utne with Barry. I still feel like I need to take a shower after what I read on Utne last night. One thing, though -- we're probably going to come out of this with a better sense of being bonded as a community. I hope we use that the right way, and not to set up socialization barriers in the future, but that's for down the road. Just musing. A really excellent email, Peter, definitely hits the problem square. Elizabeth At 07:59 AM 6/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Everyone, > >The basic premise that I've come to Brainstorms with is that we are visiting >Howard's living room. We were invited to have (hopefully) intelligent >discussions and to get to know one another. Howard's there to provide the >beverages and music. > >If we were at a party and one of the guests became rude, we wouldn't meet or >vote to have them ejected. We'd simply go to the host and inform them that >this particular guest is ruining the party. It is up to Howard to manage >his guests and in this case to deal with Barry as he sees fit. It is >unfortuante that Howard is out of town right now, but I suspect that Barry >knows that and is taking advantage of it. > >I've already stated my opinion about topic editting...it is the nuclear >weapon of virtual communities. And guess what the genie is out of the >bottle. There isn't anything we can do to keep Barry from editting his >posts, as objectionable as that may be, again at least until Howard returns. >As result some of us will look like jerks later. > >Finally, while I'd argue that Brainstorms is a private space similar to >Howard's living room, and therefore free speech is not an issue, we all know >that Barry will argue this until he turns blue. So whether we like it or >not free speech will be an issue in this situation. It is everytime you try >to tell someone what they can't do or say online. > >We have to be real careful with this e-mail thing because anytime (in my >experience) that a behind the scenes e-mail flurry like this gets going the >subject always hears about it. Then they can use the very existence of a >back channel discussion as justification for their conspiracy theories, >feelings of persecution, etc. Even if he doesn't hear about it he'll >probably assume it is happening. And we'll hear about it later in other >communities over and over and over and over... > >Peter > ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:04 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:33:56 -0400 From: Sharon Shaw MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CC: Subject: Re: response Brief comment on the existence of this e list. I don't recall any of us ringing up Vinnie and taking out a contract on el lunatic. Secondly, this free speech palaver cuts both ways. If I chose to discuss a moron with some friends, that is my business and the business of my friends. So I would not worry that we may be confirming Kort's dark imaginings. Think how more bereft he would be were we not talking about him! -- Sharon Shaw Puffin Productions ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:05 1998 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Re:response Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:06:34 -0700 Robin is a he according to his webpage at least. Can't claim to have personally inspected though. peter > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth Lewis [mailto:el@soltec.net] > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 12:47 PM > To: > Cc: > Subject: Re: Re:response > > > At 09:58 PM 6/5/98 +1000, Janette Agg wrote: > >One of the problems I think for people coming along later and reading the > >posts, is that they didn't see the original postings before they were > >edited by Barry, and therefore are inclined to think that we may be > >over-reacting ... > > First -- does anyone know if Robin is male or female? I'm going to > default to female until someone can tell me for sure. :-) Well, > not *that* sure, but you know...Anyway, I told Robin that Barry was > back-editing > posts. She never returned my email. Looks like Robin > may have to learn the hard way. > > Second -- please use this address for Bob Watson this weekend: > > euclidian@www.zoots.com > > > Third -- today I'm pondering the strategy, if we *all* agree to it, of > going back and discussing, but totally, completely ignoring anything Barry > posts or is posted to him. We could have a discussion among ourselves. > "Free speech" doesn't mean we have to speak to Barry. Let's give this some > consideration and discussion. > > Fourth -- What Peter said about Barry assuming we're talking in email is > absolutely correct. He was pushing on Utne for a rule...oh, excuse me, a > Commitment and Charter...that would forbid anyone from talking in a private > conf about anyone outside of the conf. At any rate, I don't have to tell > any of you that this conversation is private. If you are uncomfortable with > that, please let us know and we'll take you off the list without any bad > feelings. Everyone has their comfort level. > > Fifth -- never assume Barry is doing anything for the first time. He knows > all about most of these issues from the Well. He knows all about YOYOW, and > private confs being able to do as they please, etc. His MO includes > bringing these things up as if he's never encountered them before, and as > if there isn't a majority consensus on them (although I know they are still > objected to by some). This is what I find particularly disingeneous. > > Sixth -- I think Kai has come up with a brilliant way of dealing with > Barry's changing previous posts by quoting him. Even in huge chunks. It > won't change how he changes things before folks respond, but it > will help a > lot. > > Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:06 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 14:18:52 -0700 From: Thea Greenhalgh To: CC: Subject: Re: response Elizabeth and all: Your suggestion that: > ... if we *all* agree to it ... going back and discussing, but totally, > completely ignoring anything Barry posts or is posted to him. We could > have a discussion among ourselves. "Free speech" doesn't mean we have > to speak to Barry. Let's give this some consideration and discussion. is one I've always liked. Particularly since I think BK thrives - and gets more provocative - on engagement. I'd even go back into LO. It seems to me that the engagement is what elicits the craziness. > ...What Peter said about Barry assuming we're talking in email is absolutely > correct. He was pushing on Utne for a rule...that would forbid anyone from > talking in a private conf about anyone outside of the conf. At any rate, I > don't have to tell any of you that this conversation is private. If you are > uncomfortable with that, please let us know and we'll take you off the list > without any bad feelings. Everyone has their comfort level. I don't care what BK thinks about a private e-mail conversation. I honestly think he may be on the verge of seriously losing it, from what people have said about the progression of his viciousness. ( And I know this is a terribly invasive psychological speculation, but I *do* wonder if the death of his father might have something to do with it - hence my earlier e-mail. If I offended anyone, I apologize in advance. Grief sometimes - certainly not always - tips people completely over.) If so, anything he thinks would be a part of a pretty unbalanced mental place that would misconstrue just about any action. If not, then he's a total asshole and I wouldn't care what he thought about anything anyway. However, I do care what Howard thinks. I know that this has been a way for me to deal with the funny feelings I've had about this stormy ripple (newbie that I am afterall) - the sense of support, validation, and recognition has been personally important to me. And I have no problem explaining this to Howard or anyone else. At the same time, I'm uneasy. Is Howard being copied on all this? If not all, then the reader's digest version? Shouldn't he know as the host? Or something? Is your original e-mail enough? > YOYOW What does this mean????? thanks, thea ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:07 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:28:42 -0400 From: Sharon Shaw To: CC: Subject: Re: response Peter said: Robin is a he according to his webpage at least. Can't claim to have personally inspected though. Judging from the hosting he's done, I'm not sure a personal inspection would turn up anything. [sorry. I could not resist.] puff -- Sharon Shaw Puffin Productions ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:09 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:30:08 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: barry barry barry Thea asked: "At the same time, I'm uneasy. Is Howard being copied on all this? If not all, then the reader's digest version? Shouldn't he know as the host? Or something? Is your original e-mail enough?" I've told Howard in a separate email that I've opened this email circle, that there are about ten people on it, that it is a way of figuring out what to do because we care about BS, that there is no direct Barry-bashing or even parody (yet) on it, etc. He knows it's here. He's not been copied on anything other than the first email. I will happily send him, if everyone agrees, all the email from the list, which I'm saving. Having participated in email discussions along these lines with Howard in them in other circumstances, I can't imagine he'd object to this at all. In fact, I can't wait to see his response to Barry, David and Janet when they go on about private conversations. I told him about some of the ridiculous things said on Utne about private confs. And last, Howard's been a member of the Well, and knows about freedom of association and private confs. He's always supported a private host conf (except on Brainstorms, where it isn't needed) in any conferencing project I've worked with him on, and he'll no doubt continue to do that. In short, I don't see this being an issue for him. I think he'll see this as a safety valve to let off steam at most. However, and I can't emphasize this strongly enough, while I'm Howard's friend, I never talk for him and I wouldn't presume to speak on his behalf. What I'm saying is an educated guess based on my experience with him. Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Fri Jun 05 18:49:10 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:43:15 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: on the matter of BS confidentiality and YOYOW Take a look at the first 20 or so posts in Hangout 3. They make it abundantly clear that people can't take posts off BS or else Howard will yank their account. Let Barry, Janet, David and Nancy argue with Hangout 3, the first post. I'm feeling *much* better about all of this... Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:25 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT) To: From: Marlene Arnese Subject: Re: barry barry barry >I've told Howard in a separate email that I've opened this email circle, >that there are about ten people on it, that it is a way of figuring out >what to do because we care about BS, that there is no direct Barry-bashing >or even parody (yet) on it, etc. He knows it's here. He's not been copied >on anything other than the first email. I will happily send him, if >everyone agrees, all the email from the list, which I'm saving. Elizabeth, this is fine with me (though I must say I personally have crossed over the bashing line, which is rather embarrassing). As I told Sharon earlier, I think I'll be taking a break from Brainstorm this weekend (after which I hope this will be resolved), but I will be checking e-mail. P.S. Update: Dave has now copied me (and a bunch of other people, including Barry) on an e-mail to Kai. I guess Kai was the person to whom Barry was referring in that post threatening legal action (lucky you, Kai). I asked him to remove me from the list. Why do I feel that I've been spammed? Definitely martini time. ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:27 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:46:03 +0000 From: scott butki To: CC: Subject: Re: barry barry barry 1) some of us are in bs chat room right now so come on over. esp. you, kai, we want to congratulate you for the way you're handling all this. 2) can i see the email in question from dave? 3) this whole thing put me in a funk today, enuf that i had to call a friend and say that barry was bringing me down. (no, i didnt explain why). She knew barry from utne and after telling me what a worthless human being he was i came out of my funk and an feeling much better. 4) um... have a good weekend everyone. -- scott butki ICQ#12375331 http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html reporter/columnist/muser about life "Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:28 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:55:04 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: this list Folks, please use the above list for responding to messages. It adds several people that weren't here before. Instead of "reply all," try putting this list in your address book, and I'll let you know when there are additions. Hopefully, this list will end shortly after Howard returns. If you get this message tonight, Friday night around 11 CDT, we're in chat on TalkCity right now -- at least a bunch of us are. :-) Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:29 1998 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:56:56 -0700 (PDT) To: From: Marlene Arnese Subject: Re: barry barry barry Cc: Hi, guys! I'm at home now and just about to dive into that martini, which is sitting by my mouse, and my little old computer here is hopeless at getting into a chat, so I'll have to pass. But thanks for the invitation! Scott, I don't blame you for asking, but I don't think it's fair for me to show Dave's e-mail to anyone else. That's exactly what we're all complaining about, isn't it? I'm sure he'd be happy to fill you in, though. :-) In his defense he did respond and say that he thought I might be interested in the background of the discussion at BS but that he'd take me off. I do appreciate his prompt and civil response. Cheers! Marlene At 10:46 PM +0000 6/5/98, scott butki wrote: >1) some of us are in bs chat room right now so come on over. esp. you, >kai, we want to congratulate you for the way you're handling all this. > >2) can i see the email in question from dave? >3) this whole thing put me in a funk today, enuf that i had to call a >friend and say that barry was bringing me down. (no, i didnt explain why). >She knew barry from utne and after telling me what a worthless human >being he was i came out of my funk and an feeling much better. >4) um... have a good weekend everyone. >-- > >scott butki >ICQ#12375331 > >http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html > >reporter/columnist/muser about life > >"Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:30 1998 Subject: Re: Barry Kort Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:31:42 -0700 From: "John Wampler" To: cc: My apologies to all for my seeming absence in this eMail thread. I'm on the road in the wilds of at my daughter's school. God and United conspired to turn a four hour "tour" (a four hour tour) into a 18 hour grind through four airports, only one of which was on the original itinerary. (and can ANYONE explain to me why an organization depending on data connections as much as an airline, and supposedly catering to business travelers, is unable to configure the phone lines in their club room so that you can make a data call?) Additionally once I got here, I find that this bucolic dorf has but one POP, it's a long distance call and 14.4 access to boot. So I'm not up on what's been posted at BS, though I should rectify this tomorrow when I get to Baltimore. To top it all off, we made a change to the Talk City site that hosed access to EZ Talk and when I finally managed to log on and download eMail there were over 1000 users messages asking "why can't I connect?" (Scott, this is likely why you couldn't get in last night but it's supposedly been fixed) At least the Bulls are winning, and my daughter is lovely... I'm responding to all on one of the last messages so If I miss anyone who's "in on the cabal" it's purely unintentional so feel free to forward it on. Thea, YOYOW is a wellism standing for "you own your own words". It has a double meaning (for me anyway) in that what you post there belongs to you and should not be misappropriated without your permission. It also carries with it the implication that you're responsible for what you say in your posts. My present plan is to attempt to disengage. Barry's obviously reveling in the attention and I'm not willing to play his game. If he posts on topic I plan to respond but I will not participate in or comment publicly upon any inflammatory posts or actions. I did respond until it became evident that Barry was not interested in learning anything or contributing anything other than the advancement of his own grievance and agenda. I also will not allow Barry or anyone else from deterring me from posting or reading anything at BS. Sometimes putting up with a drunken boor is the price you pay for attending the party, and in that case, I'm unwilling to let one person spoil the fun I'm having. I don't think the timing of this whole action is coincidental. Barry's been here for a month or so and made some interesting and cogent posts prior to this latest excursion into paranoia and self aggrandizement. I speculate that Howard knew that this sort of thing was a possibility and may have cautioned Barry about it in the invite, accounting for his good behavior at the first. I think Barry could, if he wanted to, make a contribution, and I agree that everyone, despite their previous transgressions, deserves a second chance. I also think that once they've fucked up again, you have the right to drop the hammer with no hesitation, qualms or quibbles. I think that's what's likely to happen once Howard returns, but I also think we shouldn't be putting him in the role of enforcer. I'm not suggesting any sort of vigilante action. I don't think we should embark on any sort of campaign to oust him. A simple short eMail from each of us notifying Howard that there's a problem he should look at should suffice. I'd also suggest that whatever Howard's decides on this should be the end of it. I'm not going to try and analyze Barry's motives except to wonder if this isn't some sort of grandiose experiment to demonstrate that without a "social compact" once the "despot's" attention is not focused on his kingdom, the peasants can get up to all sort of mischief. My basic problem with that idea is that although Barry doesn't realize it (or refuses to recognize it because it's not codified to his satisfaction) there is a compact implicit in our association at BS. The problem is not that no one knows the rules, the problem is that there's a maverick who's disregarding the norms in order to grind his own axe. Although it's a PITA and something "up with which we should not have to put" in a place like BS, I"m just going to ignore him, not in the hope that he stops, but in order to concentrate on the good and valuable ideas and people I find there. I'd suggest we all bite our tongues and do the same, at least in public, and if Barry doesn't like us "talking about him behind his back" he should stop acting like an asshole - though I doubt that's ever going to occur to him. Peace be with you. ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:32 1998 Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 21:13:34 -0700 From: Thea Greenhalgh To: CC: Subject: BS Great to see all those in chat tonight - this short message is just to say that, like Marlene, I too will be taking a break from BS over the week end, though will check my e-mail. I've been ignoring my work, and have to catch up. you guys are great. thea ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 06:13:33 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 01:38:49 +0000 From: scott butki To: CC: Subject: Re: this list good news howard's back and has started wading through the emails. that's all for this report. g'nite all. -- scott butki ICQ#12375331 http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html reporter/columnist/muser about life "Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 12:50:35 1998 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Subject: Etc. Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:28:48 -0700 OK all, I'm glad to hear Howard is back and sorry I couldn't make the chat (RL intrudes on occasion). I'm finding it difficult to maintain my normally calm and collected approach with this guy. Does anyone know if Howard is back in CA or just checking e-mail? Peter ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 12:50:36 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 10:36:03 +0000 From: scott butki To: CC: Subject: Re: Etc. howard's back at home but leaving again Wednesday. Not sure Barry can manage to "be good" for that long a period. scott butki ICQ#12375331 http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html reporter/columnist/muser about life "Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 12:50:37 1998 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Subject: Food for thought Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 09:32:03 -0700 http://rdz.stjohns.edu/~storm/iad.html ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 17:06:07 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 14:20:20 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: Re: Etc. At 08:28 AM 6/6/98 -0700, Peter Rothman wrote: >OK all, > >I'm glad to hear Howard is back and sorry I couldn't make the chat (RL >intrudes on occasion). I'm finding it difficult to maintain my normally >calm and collected approach with this guy. Does anyone know if Howard is >back in CA or just checking e-mail? Howard is back for the weekend. He then goes out of town at least until Wednesday. He's warned Barry now that any more hi-jinks, and he'll pull his account. I'm guessing that by the time he finishes reading, he'll realize that yanking his account is inevitable. EL ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 17:06:08 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 15:11:51 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth Lewis Subject: Now that Howard's back... Okay, Howard is back. And he seems unpleased with some things in Life Online. :-) I'm greatly relieved. I think his strategy of seeing what happens this week when he's out of town again is a good one -- it will give Barry, Janet, David and others enough time to react. I'll be surprised if that reaction is a good one. If it is, well, that's great. I still won't be engaging any of them. If that reaction is what I'm guessing it will be, then we won't have to deal with this problem for long. I'm going back to posting in Life Online. I hope all of you do as well, it will support what Howard is doing, it will bring life and diversity back there. What I won't do is engage Barry or the rest in any way. If they speak to me, I'm going to ignore them. This is called "flowing around" an energy creature, and it works. Others, like John, may feel strong enough to engage Barry when he's being non-ballistic. For me, I feel that you give Barry an inch, and within a few posts he'll be taking a mile. Either way, let's go back in. I'm not even going to post "thanks for clearing this up, Howard." It's true, I'm grateful, but I don't want to be seen as baiting. The best way to show thanks is to post up a storm in there and to flow around Barry. I'm keeping this list going for this week since Howard is going out again. After this week, if Barry is still with us but behaving, I'll put this list into mothballs and let it lie dormant for awhile. If he's gone, and the reaction dies down, we can disband. We've had our first major crisis as a community on BS. I'd say we did well. We all knew enough to keep as calm as possible, to not flame or insult, to withdraw or semi-disengage. I think we did well. We'll probably look back on this as a community-building experience. Elizabeth ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 17:06:09 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:36:59 -0400 From: Sharon Shaw To: CC: Subject: Re: Now that Howard's back... Sounds good, El. I've got Vinnie on standby. -- Sharon Shaw Puffin Productions ============================================================================= From Secret Mailing List Archive - Sat Jun 06 17:06:12 1998 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:48:03 +0000 From: scott butki To: CC: Subject: Re: Now that Howard's back... Yeah, I'm posting again and I may sometiems engage Barry, not to criticize him or bring up inappropraite topics - i.e. utne - but to occasionally ask a relevent question or make a relevent point. Better to engage him while howard's around, when he either has to be good or suffer the consequences, than when he's away again, i think. But I also don't want to do any entrapment. Scott -- scott butki ICQ#12375331 http://home.talkcity.com/StudioDr/scoop1/index.html reporter/columnist/muser about life "Know thyself for better mental health" - KRS One ======================================================================= From prothman@nanocosm.com Thu Feb 25 17:19:46 1999 From: "Peter Rothman" To: Cc: Subject: Your improper and illegal use of my e-mails Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:18:27 -0800 Importance: High Dear Mr. Kort: It has come to my attention that you are storing e-mails which I sent in a confidential correspondence on your website at the URL http://www.musenet.org/utnebury/bs.txt, This site which is linked from http://www.musenet.org/utnebury/, takes these messages out of context and displays them in a libelous manner. You do not have my permisison to republish these messages. Please remove all e-mail messages written by me from your server immediately or I will be forced to take legal action to ensure that you do so. Although I would prefer to avoid that, I consider this to be a serious matter and will act accordingly. Sincerely, Peter Rothman